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Current issue : #65 | Release date : 11/04/2008 | Editor : TCLH
Title : The Underground Myth
==Phrack Inc.==
Volume 0x0c, Issue 0x41, Phile #0x0d of 0x0f
|=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=|
|=-----------------------=[ The Underground Myth ]=----------------------=|
|=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=|
|=---------------------------=[ By Anonymous ]=--------------------------=|
|=-----------------------------------------------------------------------=|
1 - Hacker's Myth
2 - The Security Industry
3 - Black Hat, Two Faces
4 - Technology
5 - Criminals
6 - Forgotten Youth
7 - The Forward Link
-------------
Hacker's Myth
-------------
This is a statement on the fate of the modern underground. There will
be none of the nostalgia, melodrama, black hat rhetoric or white hat
over-analysis that normally accompanies such writing.
Since the early sixties there has been just one continuous hacking
scene. From phreaking to hacking, people came and went, explosions of
activity, various geographical shifts of influence. But although the scene
seemed to constantly redefine itself in the ebb and flow of technology,
it always had a direct lineage to the past, with similar traditions,
culture and spirit.
In the past few years this connection has been completely severed.
And so there's very little point in writing about what the underground
used to be; leave that to the historians. Very little point writing
about what should be done to make everything good again; leave that to
the dreamers and idealists. Instead I'm going to lay down some cold hard
facts about the way things are now, and more importantly, how they came
to be this way.
This is the story of how the underground died.
---------------------
The Security Industry
---------------------
Then in the U.S. music scene there was big changes made
Due to circumstances beyond our control... such as payola
The rock n roll scene died after two years of solid rock
- The Animals, circa 1964
There is little doubt that the explosion of the security industry has
directly coincided with the decline of the hacking scene. The hackers
of the eighties and nineties became the security professionals of the
new millennium, and the community suffered for it.
The fact is that hackers, mostly on an individual basis, decided to
use their passion as a source of income. Whether this is good, bad,
or just pragmatic is completely irrelevant. Nearly all the hackers that
could get jobs did. For the individuals that decision has been made (for
better or worse), and in general there's nothing that will change this.
This was a hacker exodus. What really mattered was not the loss of any
individuals, but the cumulative effect this had on the underground. The
more hackers that left the underground for a corporate life, the fewer
that came in. And those who stayed became entrenched, increasingly
disconnected.
Collaboration in this new age of career hackers has all but ceased to
exist. Individuals are now obsessed with credit. For their career, for
their standing in the community, it must be absolutely clear who this
research, this vulnerability, or even this opinion belongs to.
There is no trust in this corporate community; an underground issue
greatly amplified by corporate motivations. A single person can go months
or even years without telling anyone exactly what he is working on, and
whats more, will be genuinely worried about someone "publishing" their
results before him. There is no respect for the information he holds,
no belief that information should be free, no belief that research should
be open. All that matters is credit; all that matters is fame and money,
their career.
This is purely the fault of the security industry, who has exploited
and cultivated this culture, designed it for their needs. The truly sad
thing is that the corporate security world hasn't realized that they are
sitting on a gold mine, and as a result the mine is likely to collapse;
and likely to take their industry down with it.
The security industry uses information as its sole commodity, information
about insecurity. Who has the information, and who doesn't is what
makes this economy work. Whats more, the economy has been founded on
the continued output of a finite group of hackers. For the most part,
founded on those hackers that came out of the underground scene at their
technical prime.
But these hackers are not going to continue their production
indefinitely. They will lose their technical edge, move on to other
industries, perhaps climb the ladder up to management, and then
retire. The question is, then what? Then it will be up to the new wave
of young security professionals, whose motivation is as much financial
as it is passion for the technology and the thrill of the hacking game.
To imagine that these new wave office workers, university trained and
disinterested, can match the creative output of a genuine hacker is
laughable. The industry will stagnate under these conditions. The rapid
technical advancement we have seen will end, no more breakthroughs:
no more new security products or services. Just the same old techniques
being rehashed again and again until the rock has been bled dry.
I am trying to show you the symbiotic nature of the security industry
and the hacking scene. Industry needs insecurity to survive, there is
no doubt about this. A secure and stable Internet is not profitable for
long. Hackers provided instability, change, chaos. So the industry became
a parasite on the hacking scene, devouring the talent pool without giving
anything back, not thinking of what will happen when there are no more
hackers to consume.
For this reason, the security industry, much like the hacker underground,
is doomed, perhaps even destined for failure. But for now, all that
matters is that we have a thriving industry and...
A hacker underground proclaimed to be dead.
--------------------
Black Hat, Two Faces
--------------------
It would be easy to lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the
security industry. A lot of people have. Unfortunately, its not that
simple. Perhaps the underground could have survived without the lure of
a six figure job, but one thing should be made clear. The self-proclaimed
black hat movement does nothing to help.
Various black hat groups have claimed to be the voice of the underground,
but the black hat scene was only ever a pale imitation of the actual
underground. The underground wasn't at all interested in public
self-aggrandizement, but this is all the black hats ever did. All that
their various rants and escapades accomplished was to show how desperate
they actually were for fame and recognition.
But whats worse, while they often talk a big game, they very rarely have
the pedigree to back it up. This is mostly because these self-proclaimed
black hats are really just as self-serving as the white hats they pretend
to detest. With few exceptions, those black hats that aren't already
working in the security industry are those that don't have the skills
to cut it.
The entire anti-security theme was simply embarrassing. This was just the
black hat movement admitting that they couldn't step up and represent
in an increasingly technical world. Where once hacking skill commanded
respect, now the black hats were promoting misinformation in order to
make what few hacks they managed to pull off easier. They couldn't step
up to a challenge, they couldn't outsmart the white hats they so detest.
This ineptitude and misguided fervor of the black hat scene had a
massive negative impact on the hacking underground. The true voice of
the underground was lost behind the noise and drama, until the voice
became a whisper.
And then eventually fell silent.
----------
Technology
----------
The very nature of technology, a dynamic and intractable force, had a lot
to say in the demise of the hacking world. In many cases, if a black hat
had been active 5 or 10 years earlier they would have been technically
competent and may well have contributed significantly. This is because
with the utmost respect, and despite all the nostalgia, hackers of the
past had it easy.
In the early years, the problems hackers faced were largely related to the
availability of information. Isolated groups of people had their tricks
and techniques, and sharing this information was problematic. This is
in direct contrast with the situation today, where there is an excess
of information but a void of quality.
As a result of many differing factors, the world is becoming aware of the
threats posed by lax security. When there is money at risk, steps will
be taken to protect those assets. We see now an increasing move towards
technical security mechanisms being employed as part of a defense in
depth strategy, and as a result, to be a hacker today requires immense
technical ability in a broad range of disciplines. It takes years of
individual study to reach this level.
But unfortunately, fewer and fewer people are willing, or indeed capable
of following this path, of pursuing that ever-unattainable goal of
technical perfection. Instead, the current trend is to pursue the lowest
common denominator, to do the least amount of work to gain the most fame,
respect or money.
There has also been an increasingly narrow range in what is published. In
part this is because of the lack of accessibility of certain systems
(through obscurity or price), but this is also increasingly dictated by
fashion. In a desire to fit in with the community, to be accepted in
to conferences, to be seen doing the right things in the right places
with the right people, researchers are all too happy to slot in to this
pattern of predictable and narrow progress.
And even then, the standards of what makes acceptable research, or for
what makes a vulnerability interesting, drops with every year. The gap
between offensive research and defensive implementations continues to
grow, to the point where public vulnerability research has become a
parody of what it once was, a type of inside joke.
There is no creativity, no sense of arcana anymore.
---------
Criminals
---------
From Operation Sundevil to cyber terrorism. The criminalization of
computer hacking and, by association, computer hackers had a devastating
impact on the underground. Hacking was criminalized in two ways, both
of near equal importance: by legislation of computer crimes, and by the
new trend of genuine criminals using hacking as a method for fraud.
There should be a clear separation between these two things. The fact
that the underground collectively became criminals under the law for
what they had been doing for, in some cases, decades. And the fact that
in public perception, even among professionals that should know better,
there was very little distinction between a genuine hacker and those
criminals using hacking purely as a method for profit.
Indeed, little of what organized crime and terrorist/activist groups
are doing could justifiably be labeled hacking. It is simply convenient
to make this simplification, in media and in industry. The security
industry knows the difference, but they have no economic interest in
there being any clarity on this point. Any sort of hacking, anything
they can sensationalize enough to scare their profit margin up suits
them perfectly.
For the underground, these issues largely affected individuals, not the
broader structure of things. Each person had to make a personal decision
on whether it was worth 1) being seen as a criminal under the law and
2) being seen as a criminal in public perception. Why should the hacker
face this when such an easy, safe, respectable alternative is available
in the security industry?
Even the term black hat has been twisted into something more closely
aligned to organized crime. For all their faults, black hats were not
(in theory) motivated by this type of money.
It comes down to an aging hacking population deciding, on an individual
basis, to settle down with their families, their material possessions,
their careers. No one can argue that there is anything wrong with this. It
is just a fact that these hackers left the scene behind.
Leaving a void too large to be filled.
---------------
Forgotten Youth
---------------
The forgotten aspect of this whole story is, without doubt, the importance
of new talent entering the world of hacking. Historically, hacking has
belonged to the young. With every passing year, the average age of hackers
collectively increases. Some would claim this is a sign of a maturing
discipline. For surely, what could youth possibly contribute in this
technological landscape? They call them kids, dismiss them as irrelevant.
Despite all of the issues facing the underground, if hackers had managed
to get this one aspect right, if they had recognized the importance
of those who would come after them, if they had given them something
to aspire to be, if they had directly or indirectly taught them the
accumulated wisdom that so often separates a hacker from the crowd;
then perhaps there still would be a hacker underground.
Nearly all of the situations surrounding the disestablishment of the
underground were circumstantial, there was nobody to blame, and nothing
that could be done. But one point for which this was not true was the
underground's obligations to young hackers. An entire generation of
talented hackers have lost the opportunity to become a part of something
bigger than themselves by participating in a functioning hacking
community, simply because hackers were too self-absorbed to notice.
The decline of the underground scene happened relatively quickly, and
also relatively quietly. The hacker who left the underground behind
for his new life was unlikely to justify or explain his choices. In
fact it was more likely he would deny being changed at all. It's likely
he'd even continue to have contact with his fellow ex-hackers, in some
imitation of the underground scene. This only helped to obscure what
was actually happening.
Today's youth, for the most part, have no true understanding of hackers
or hacking. They have no knowledge of the history, no knowledge that
a history even exists. Their hacker is the media's hacker, the cyber
terrorist, the Russian mafia. This is unfortunate, but the real trouble
begins for those few that somehow become interested enough to look a
bit deeper.
The average person requires some form of role model, something to aspire
to, to imitate and to an extent, to idolize. At this time, the only
visible efforts were the white hat researchers, the black hat horde or
various other technically inept self-proclaimed 'experts'. There is so
little inspiring research, and even less inspiring hacking, that anyone
new to the world of hacking is almost invariably left with a skewed
impression of things.
Indeed, for a lot of the young people that managed to acquire the
necessary technical base, hacking was seen as simply an interesting career
path. There is no passion in these people, no motivation to extend and
create. A competent professional, valued employee.
But no longer a hacker.
----------------
The Forward Link
----------------
The hacker underground has been systematically dismantled, a victim of
circumstance. There was no reason for this, no conspiracy, no winner. A
conquered people, but with no conqueror, no enemy to fight. No chance
of rebellion. Conquered by circumstance, if not fate.
At first this would seem to be a bleak message. What is the point of
even trying anymore? Why practice a dead art? But the truth is that the
art is not dead, just the circle that brought the artists together. The
hacker underground is broken, but the hackers are not.
Casualties have been high; but there still exists a scattered,
marginalized, and misrepresented people who are the hackers. Hackers,
not black hat nor white, not professionals, not amateurs (surely none
of this matters), are still out there in this world today, still with
all the potential to be something great.
The question is not then how to artificially group these people into a
new underground movement. The question is not how to mourn the passing of
the golden days, how to keep the memories alive. There are no questions
of this sort, no problems that can be solved or corrected by individual
action.
All that remains is to relax, to do what you enjoy doing; to hack purely
for the enjoyment of doing so. The rest will come naturally, a new
scene, with its own traditions, culture and history. A new underground,
organically formed over time, just like the first, out of the hacker's
natural inclination to share and explore.
It will take time, and there will be difficulties. Some will not be able
to let go of the past, and some will fail for not remembering it. But
in the end, after everything has been said and done, the equilibrium
will be restored.
A new world, at the frontier of cyberspace, belonging to the hackers
by right.
Comments :
penguin, on July 28th 2008 at 11:36 pm :
"I agree with badspyro mentioning the death of the spirit of the internet, although I think it was less about corporations and governments, and more about the massive influx of the public. To quote the Hacker's Manifesto - "This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud". It is no longer our world. Between MySpace, Facebook, and Xbox Live, the net got flooded. My thoughts are that users became familiar to the simple registration process as well as becoming part of the online community, and it stole the soul of what this medium was originally about - exploration, knowledge, and true community. It created a hostile, paranoid environment where games like Uplink popularized "Trust is a Weakness" - and the hacker community did absolutely nothing to contend."
While I agree that the spirit of the internet is dead, its legacy lives on in those of us who are still here to explore. Being just old enough to have caught the end of the "original scene", too me it almost feels as though the modern hacker communities reflect the Social Networking trend. The internet has never been more available to people, and that is what truly killed the scene, now any kid who fancies himself a "hacker" can jump on and with minimal knowledge deploy devastating attacks on unprotected machines. Most of your Blackhats nowadays aren't much more than glorified script kiddies looking for attention, just as much as the girl with slutty pictures on myspace doesn't really have 1million friends, but she loves the attention.
I'm sure someday a new better underground will form, but I'm sure I'll be too damn old by then.
While I agree that the spirit of the internet is dead, its legacy lives on in those of us who are still here to explore. Being just old enough to have caught the end of the "original scene", too me it almost feels as though the modern hacker communities reflect the Social Networking trend. The internet has never been more available to people, and that is what truly killed the scene, now any kid who fancies himself a "hacker" can jump on and with minimal knowledge deploy devastating attacks on unprotected machines. Most of your Blackhats nowadays aren't much more than glorified script kiddies looking for attention, just as much as the girl with slutty pictures on myspace doesn't really have 1million friends, but she loves the attention.
I'm sure someday a new better underground will form, but I'm sure I'll be too damn old by then.
amanfromMars, on July 28th 2008 at 1:10 am :
"I suspect that the evolution of cyber-warfare will turn hackers into soldiers. Every scene is in some state of flux. It will never be what it was, but it may evolve into something interesting and.. different." ....... asddjnasdas0dion, on July 23th 2008 at 8:10 am
asddjnasdas0dion,
I agree, and it will evolve into something interesting and.. different. Although the SMART/SMARTer/SMARTest Money will ensure that the interesting difference is that any cyber-warfare will turn hackers into Banker's AIgents so that they have Control of Capitalism and Currency, which is an Artificially Created, Man Made Control which only requires Paper and Ink and a Printing Press to carry off the Subterfuge/Slick Snake Oil Trick.
asddjnasdas0dion,
I agree, and it will evolve into something interesting and.. different. Although the SMART/SMARTer/SMARTest Money will ensure that the interesting difference is that any cyber-warfare will turn hackers into Banker's AIgents so that they have Control of Capitalism and Currency, which is an Artificially Created, Man Made Control which only requires Paper and Ink and a Printing Press to carry off the Subterfuge/Slick Snake Oil Trick.
asddjnasdas0dion, on July 23th 2008 at 11:10 pm :
I suspect that the evolution of cyber-warfare will turn hackers into soldiers. Every scene is in some state of flux. It will never be what it was, but it may evolve into something interesting and.. different.
amanfromMars, on July 22th 2008 at 8:48 am :
"bro if you think privacy is a thing of the past, you needa do some homework, its just a new ballgame and the name of the sport is CDMA!"
Thanks for the Heads Up on CDMA, disco_y2k, although with Steganographic Traces is there no Privacy anywhere in Electromagnetic BroadBand Spectrum. So be Aware, and Be Wary of what you would do and may Think to do, is Sound Advice anyway.
Although if your Caught in a Bad Flow that is sometimes not so Easy to handle without Professional Help.
Thanks for the Heads Up on CDMA, disco_y2k, although with Steganographic Traces is there no Privacy anywhere in Electromagnetic BroadBand Spectrum. So be Aware, and Be Wary of what you would do and may Think to do, is Sound Advice anyway.
Although if your Caught in a Bad Flow that is sometimes not so Easy to handle without Professional Help.
disco_y2k, on July 18th 2008 at 8:32 am :
:) sorry again for the constant posting :)
:) this one is on purpose :)
i just realized a common theme to many other posts.
it seems there are alot of people really wanting to learn, learn anything and everything. and that is extremely excellent, but everyone here i am sure has a specific subject they are just totally obsessed with, even if they have 100 others they realllly like.
im not sure how the rest of the world works, and really dont care :) but it always seemed like in every community there was always a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker. meaning, in every community, although everyone was interested in everything, certain peeps were the really versed in certain areas.
i think maybe we shouldnt waste all the great peeps wanting to explore, but at the same time, maybe lets try to be a little more organized.
instead of posting asking for help in general, post listing what topic/area/hardware/software/etc you are most into. that way, if someone in the community is really skilled in that area maybe they can give ya a nudge. :)
just an idea :)
cheers,
disco
P.S. i'll start, a lil pet project i been toying with for a long time is a roaming irc net. if ya think you can help me out, lemme know, thanx
:) this one is on purpose :)
i just realized a common theme to many other posts.
it seems there are alot of people really wanting to learn, learn anything and everything. and that is extremely excellent, but everyone here i am sure has a specific subject they are just totally obsessed with, even if they have 100 others they realllly like.
im not sure how the rest of the world works, and really dont care :) but it always seemed like in every community there was always a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker. meaning, in every community, although everyone was interested in everything, certain peeps were the really versed in certain areas.
i think maybe we shouldnt waste all the great peeps wanting to explore, but at the same time, maybe lets try to be a little more organized.
instead of posting asking for help in general, post listing what topic/area/hardware/software/etc you are most into. that way, if someone in the community is really skilled in that area maybe they can give ya a nudge. :)
just an idea :)
cheers,
disco
P.S. i'll start, a lil pet project i been toying with for a long time is a roaming irc net. if ya think you can help me out, lemme know, thanx
disco_y2k, on July 18th 2008 at 8:13 am :
sorry for the double post everyone, not used to laptops with the st00pid touch pad i must have hit it with my thumb.
also to amanfromMars, bro if you think privacy is a thing of the past, you needa do some homework, its just a new ballgame and the name of the sport is CDMA! its the easiest protocol to master and you can do anything with it. if your not interested in that, just build like a small 2watt or 4 watt 2.4ghz amp and a $5 antenna and relocate yourself across town.
cheers,
disco
also to amanfromMars, bro if you think privacy is a thing of the past, you needa do some homework, its just a new ballgame and the name of the sport is CDMA! its the easiest protocol to master and you can do anything with it. if your not interested in that, just build like a small 2watt or 4 watt 2.4ghz amp and a $5 antenna and relocate yourself across town.
cheers,
disco
disco_y2k, on July 18th 2008 at 7:25 am :
hello all,
wow! im gettin close to 30 now and after reading through this thread i suddenly realized i'm now 'the old guy in the club' LOL! its just a joke :)
i cant begin to say how many excellent points peeps brought up, i hardly ever post anywhere anymore but, for some reason this thread kinda hit home i guess.
it is tru that things have/are/will change, thats the beauty of hacking something, it had to be dynamic to alter it right?. and lets not forget what hacking originally was? hacking was the hardware peeps, 'hackin' up any device they could find to see how it works. (thats was me hehe, i started on the hardware engineering side, problem was more times than not, i destroyed more than i learned, so i switched to code) 'cracking' was the software peeps. and the people who i admire are the ones who mastered both. like kevin.
the media and the peeps mentioned above, the 'sell-outs' i guess you would call them eventually grouped them/us/u/me/him/her whatever into 1 lump term 'hacker'. after all they had to make someone or some group the big bad 'wolf' (ole skool peeps remember him/her im sure) so that they could create the security industry and become CEO's or whatever title they label themselves.
i am sure when the moment of truth is the here and now and someone offers you a whole lot o $ to give up your passion for the pursuit of knowledge to go work for them, and sell all that you have learned, and all that your friends have learned to the evil corporation, it must be pretty tempting. i mean, after all eventually we all have to eat sometimes and lets face it 'hackin stuff' doesnt put f00d on the table :) i will be the first to admit, that back in college when the landlord gave us the boot and the wallet was empty, i took a few dollars to show someone howto do something.
BUT, i guess in a very long winded way, i want everyone to remember where all this 'hackin' business came from. :HACKERS=peeps who just had to know everything about a devices hardware CRACKERS=peeps who just had to know everything about a devices software: do you see a pattern here? yes you do, there will always be the 'peeps who just have to know..' whatever the topic/subject/device happens to be.
the 'scene' as peeps call it is not going anywhere, its all alive and well, its just sad to say that most of the time the places to get information on current topics are hidden and invite only. which is sad, i know, but like everything else i guess in this area, things are dynamic and to survive you have to adapt.
for all the ones out there that were callin themselves the 'young' peeps, for 1 thing, age doesnt matter, but most importantly, dont get discouraged, the whole point is to just randomly one day at skool/at home/at work/where ever if ya suddenly find some 'widget' that catches your interest, go for it, break it down, build it up, program it, FRY 1 OR 2 of em hehe, and i bet ya dollars to donuts when ya start lookin online for other peeps with the same questions you have about your 'widget' you will find a whole community just waitin for you to join in and learn. dont worry so much about how so many of the 'older peeps' 'went corporate' or whatever, just make sure you dont sell your soul for an expense account and hot lil secretary :)
the original poster did mention 1 thing I especially agree with. just like im sure some st00pid couch, somewhere, at some time told you before, there is no 'I' in the word 'TEAM'. i know things have changed, everyone can not be completely open on WWW about every topic, but still, remember this, the whole thing is about knowledge and curiousity and the love of both. im not sure where the obsession with making sure everyone knows u developed this, or u discovered that, etc came from, but if anything; that is what may bring the 'scene' (or whatever label you wish to use) to its death. that causes peeps to hold new intereting things to themselves. the longer that happens, the fewer additional brains get to help out and make kool stuff happen.
sorry if i kinda rambled a bit :)
like i said before, to everyone who contributed, GREAT THREAD! guys/girls/monkeys/giraffes
wow! im gettin close to 30 now and after reading through this thread i suddenly realized i'm now 'the old guy in the club' LOL! its just a joke :)
i cant begin to say how many excellent points peeps brought up, i hardly ever post anywhere anymore but, for some reason this thread kinda hit home i guess.
it is tru that things have/are/will change, thats the beauty of hacking something, it had to be dynamic to alter it right?. and lets not forget what hacking originally was? hacking was the hardware peeps, 'hackin' up any device they could find to see how it works. (thats was me hehe, i started on the hardware engineering side, problem was more times than not, i destroyed more than i learned, so i switched to code) 'cracking' was the software peeps. and the people who i admire are the ones who mastered both. like kevin.
the media and the peeps mentioned above, the 'sell-outs' i guess you would call them eventually grouped them/us/u/me/him/her whatever into 1 lump term 'hacker'. after all they had to make someone or some group the big bad 'wolf' (ole skool peeps remember him/her im sure) so that they could create the security industry and become CEO's or whatever title they label themselves.
i am sure when the moment of truth is the here and now and someone offers you a whole lot o $ to give up your passion for the pursuit of knowledge to go work for them, and sell all that you have learned, and all that your friends have learned to the evil corporation, it must be pretty tempting. i mean, after all eventually we all have to eat sometimes and lets face it 'hackin stuff' doesnt put f00d on the table :) i will be the first to admit, that back in college when the landlord gave us the boot and the wallet was empty, i took a few dollars to show someone howto do something.
BUT, i guess in a very long winded way, i want everyone to remember where all this 'hackin' business came from. :HACKERS=peeps who just had to know everything about a devices hardware CRACKERS=peeps who just had to know everything about a devices software: do you see a pattern here? yes you do, there will always be the 'peeps who just have to know..' whatever the topic/subject/device happens to be.
the 'scene' as peeps call it is not going anywhere, its all alive and well, its just sad to say that most of the time the places to get information on current topics are hidden and invite only. which is sad, i know, but like everything else i guess in this area, things are dynamic and to survive you have to adapt.
for all the ones out there that were callin themselves the 'young' peeps, for 1 thing, age doesnt matter, but most importantly, dont get discouraged, the whole point is to just randomly one day at skool/at home/at work/where ever if ya suddenly find some 'widget' that catches your interest, go for it, break it down, build it up, program it, FRY 1 OR 2 of em hehe, and i bet ya dollars to donuts when ya start lookin online for other peeps with the same questions you have about your 'widget' you will find a whole community just waitin for you to join in and learn. dont worry so much about how so many of the 'older peeps' 'went corporate' or whatever, just make sure you dont sell your soul for an expense account and hot lil secretary :)
the original poster did mention 1 thing I especially agree with. just like im sure some st00pid couch, somewhere, at some time told you before, there is no 'I' in the word 'TEAM'. i know things have changed, everyone can not be completely open on WWW about every topic, but still, remember this, the whole thing is about knowledge and curiousity and the love of both. im not sure where the obsession with making sure everyone knows u developed this, or u discovered that, etc came from, but if anything; that is what may bring the 'scene' (or whatever label you wish to use) to its death. that causes peeps to hold new intereting things to themselves. the longer that happens, the fewer additional brains get to help out and make kool stuff happen.
sorry if i kinda rambled a bit :)
like i said before, to everyone who contributed, GREAT THREAD! guys/girls/monkeys/giraffes
XayOn, on July 14th 2008 at 2:59 am :
DoesntMakeSense Said:
> Be a blackhat or whitehat, sysadmin or a bastard, why
> we should care?, you're too intrested on being a
> hacker, but you dont want to have fun, you want to see
> a website with HackEd bY Me!!1 on the index... and
> maybe share it with your msn friends, at least china
> ppl skilled, are doing this... they call it revolution
> or cyberwar, but have no speechs or information about
> that on their "index", and im talking about this, cuz
> is the scene of today, defacing
What about being a bastard sysadmin? ;-)
Hacking is about fun, but it's also about information.
I mean, lots of people are defacin just nonsense, but defacing with info spreading purposes is *sometimes* necessary and Ok.
Defacing is not the scene of today, defacing is just a stupid mode caused by stupid configs and vulns on some systems, defacing is just the same as ever, script kiddies doing something in easy-to-exploit systems
And relating to the article:
In -Tecnology- says there is and excess of information and a void of quality, this is true, and not, I mean, there is lots of low-quality information, but there is also lots of high-quality information, and low quality information can be usefull for someone, so it's ok to be there.
> Be a blackhat or whitehat, sysadmin or a bastard, why
> we should care?, you're too intrested on being a
> hacker, but you dont want to have fun, you want to see
> a website with HackEd bY Me!!1 on the index... and
> maybe share it with your msn friends, at least china
> ppl skilled, are doing this... they call it revolution
> or cyberwar, but have no speechs or information about
> that on their "index", and im talking about this, cuz
> is the scene of today, defacing
What about being a bastard sysadmin? ;-)
Hacking is about fun, but it's also about information.
I mean, lots of people are defacin just nonsense, but defacing with info spreading purposes is *sometimes* necessary and Ok.
Defacing is not the scene of today, defacing is just a stupid mode caused by stupid configs and vulns on some systems, defacing is just the same as ever, script kiddies doing something in easy-to-exploit systems
And relating to the article:
In -Tecnology- says there is and excess of information and a void of quality, this is true, and not, I mean, there is lots of low-quality information, but there is also lots of high-quality information, and low quality information can be usefull for someone, so it's ok to be there.
amanfromMars, on July 12th 2008 at 5:47 am :
Herr Schroti,
Whenever it is so easy to fabricate fantastic malicious conspiracy charges with information shared privately by e-mail and/or through any other communications medium, it is always best to share help transparently online in much the same way as is done on the humble messageboard .... for, of course, privacy is a thing of the past as the conspiracy to grant immunity and impunity to ITs snoopers must convey..... http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/07/09
But that, of course, is only a concern to worry one if one is stepping out of line and into territory which you wouldn't care to discuss publicly.
Whenever it is so easy to fabricate fantastic malicious conspiracy charges with information shared privately by e-mail and/or through any other communications medium, it is always best to share help transparently online in much the same way as is done on the humble messageboard .... for, of course, privacy is a thing of the past as the conspiracy to grant immunity and impunity to ITs snoopers must convey..... http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2008/07/09
But that, of course, is only a concern to worry one if one is stepping out of line and into territory which you wouldn't care to discuss publicly.
Herr Shroti, on July 8th 2008 at 3:28 am :
Good day.
I am also relatively new to this, and can relate to what mcintyre69 said. I too have been flamed, abused, cussed and insulted too often to number. And yet... I persevere. Though the communities are dead, dieing or growing cold and closed, we persist. For we, we are not one, but many, all trying to learn. I have always searched not for a lightbulb, but for how said lightbulb works, why it works, and by this understanding, to improve the lightbulb. I take the same approach to hacking, not wanting it to neccesarily work, but rather to know how, and why it worked/didnt work. All the information I have thus far found is either too oversimplified, with no understanding possible to be gleaned form, or too complex for me to understand. Thus, in closing, mcintyre69, I salute you.
Regards, Herr Shroti
PS. If there is one here who might take one not even worthy of n00b or script kiddie, please, contact me at [Herr DOT Shroti AT gmail DOT com]. Thank you.
I am also relatively new to this, and can relate to what mcintyre69 said. I too have been flamed, abused, cussed and insulted too often to number. And yet... I persevere. Though the communities are dead, dieing or growing cold and closed, we persist. For we, we are not one, but many, all trying to learn. I have always searched not for a lightbulb, but for how said lightbulb works, why it works, and by this understanding, to improve the lightbulb. I take the same approach to hacking, not wanting it to neccesarily work, but rather to know how, and why it worked/didnt work. All the information I have thus far found is either too oversimplified, with no understanding possible to be gleaned form, or too complex for me to understand. Thus, in closing, mcintyre69, I salute you.
Regards, Herr Shroti
PS. If there is one here who might take one not even worthy of n00b or script kiddie, please, contact me at [Herr DOT Shroti AT gmail DOT com]. Thank you.
.: iontrx :., on June 30th 2008 at 2:45 pm :
We need a world wide revolution (evolution).
;-)
;-)
0b1k3e_0f_7h3_d3s3rt, on June 11th 2008 at 11:56 pm :
manual or Socket programming ebook. Hackers are [in my opinion] responsible for most of the damage. I think most hacker texts are too simplified. so simplified that any one who reads could be hacking within a couple of hours, and in my opinion without great struggle there is no passion at all and thus no innovation and in the future no hackers at all, because what was once a descipline is now just a mere recipe to be followed without knowledge of why what is been done actually works.
I don't consider myself a hacker at this stage [not even a newbie] but i'm on my way and i will get there. I think at this stage there is absolutley no hope for the hacker underground. But there is a chance that a new breed of hackers could emerge from this catastrophe .............and i hope to be one of them and i hope there are others out there that feel the same.
I don't consider myself a hacker at this stage [not even a newbie] but i'm on my way and i will get there. I think at this stage there is absolutley no hope for the hacker underground. But there is a chance that a new breed of hackers could emerge from this catastrophe .............and i hope to be one of them and i hope there are others out there that feel the same.
wordup, on June 7th 2008 at 11:10 am :
This is a fantastic article. While the modern-day shadow of what was once a fantastic hacking scene will continue to occupy themselves in flamewars and other ego-based arguments which essentially come down to who's dick is bigger, there are those of us out there that know the universe tends to realign itself if you give it time.
Learn for the sake of learning, love for the sake of loving, and the "scene" will come back, just as it began under those very conditions. In fact, it may just be stronger than before.
Learn for the sake of learning, love for the sake of loving, and the "scene" will come back, just as it began under those very conditions. In fact, it may just be stronger than before.
phrack staff, on June 5th 2008 at 2:09 pm :
J.Blankenship:
Do you have any affiliation with Loyd Blankenship ?
-phrack staff
Do you have any affiliation with Loyd Blankenship ?
-phrack staff
Blankensip, on June 5th 2008 at 10:52 am :
The securiy business will be fine as will the underground scene. Honestly I know very little about what hackers are doing now, and I don't care either. I am a security professinal of a different kind. But, the cold truth of the matter is that being an average joe with an old kindling flame of interest in underground WWW activities and knowing no more than the history of the scene...knows there are people who could put my personal files in the open. I know that there are people who could reveal to the world that I downloaded kiddy porn(not to say that I did). And, even if there is noone in the world who can gain remote access to my PC I believe there is someone that can. There is always a new generation of snooping "kids." We're all alike remember? As long as the curiosity burns to do what has not been done before there will be hackers. As long as there are hackers there will be old hackers trying to catch them.
-J. Blankenship
-J. Blankenship
mcintyre69, on May 18th 2008 at 6:57 am :
sorry just one more thing. if anyone out there fancy's trying to help a newbie feel free to give advice or point me in th erightright direction.
amanfromMars, on May 18th 2008 at 2:05 am :
"the information is few and far between and when you finally meet a bunch of would be teachers (that could offer you help) they start with the abuse and such forth. i would genuinly love to start to learn the art, and would be happy to spend hours learning if there was just an easier way to be taught."
mcintyre69,
You appear to be doing all the right things to learn everything that you want/need to know. And anyone who gives you abuse as you question everything of yourself and the information which others/the Internet gives you [or tries to deny you as Secret and Secure but actually also kept hidden for selfish private use, which is Real Virtual Abuse]is no teacher so just Ignore them for invariably you will have touched upon a vulnerability against which they have no valid defence/excuse.
And a few months ago was the start, now you are right into the thick of IT. Bravo, mcintyre69.
Dig dDeep. Do everything for the Right Reason which doesn't Damage anything even should you Realise that IT will Upset/Fundamentally Change Everything, and you will Find Like-Minded Help Virtually which will then become as Real as you Choose to make it with IT Control.
That is why there is so much EMPhasis nowadays on Securing CyberSpace but in ITs Space are there No Secrets Allowed for their is No Hiding Place.
AI Seventh Heaven Hacked Paradise for Crack Coders .... Global Communication HQ?
Of course IT is.
mcintyre69,
You appear to be doing all the right things to learn everything that you want/need to know. And anyone who gives you abuse as you question everything of yourself and the information which others/the Internet gives you [or tries to deny you as Secret and Secure but actually also kept hidden for selfish private use, which is Real Virtual Abuse]is no teacher so just Ignore them for invariably you will have touched upon a vulnerability against which they have no valid defence/excuse.
And a few months ago was the start, now you are right into the thick of IT. Bravo, mcintyre69.
Dig dDeep. Do everything for the Right Reason which doesn't Damage anything even should you Realise that IT will Upset/Fundamentally Change Everything, and you will Find Like-Minded Help Virtually which will then become as Real as you Choose to make it with IT Control.
That is why there is so much EMPhasis nowadays on Securing CyberSpace but in ITs Space are there No Secrets Allowed for their is No Hiding Place.
AI Seventh Heaven Hacked Paradise for Crack Coders .... Global Communication HQ?
Of course IT is.
mcintyre69, on May 17th 2008 at 1:40 pm :
to everyone that reads this im guessing will probally flame me but here goes my opinion.
for a few months now ive been hugly interested in hacking and learning, just for the fun and to understand. ive spent many a night scrawling through forums and trying to learn. but the truth is its just to hard for someone new to come into this sort of scene, the information is few and far between and when you finally meet a bunch of would be teachers (that could offer you help) they start with the abuse and such forth. i would genuinly love to start to learn the art, and would be happy to spend hours learning if there was just an easier way to be taught.
any how thats my 2 cents worth, feel free to flame away.
for a few months now ive been hugly interested in hacking and learning, just for the fun and to understand. ive spent many a night scrawling through forums and trying to learn. but the truth is its just to hard for someone new to come into this sort of scene, the information is few and far between and when you finally meet a bunch of would be teachers (that could offer you help) they start with the abuse and such forth. i would genuinly love to start to learn the art, and would be happy to spend hours learning if there was just an easier way to be taught.
any how thats my 2 cents worth, feel free to flame away.
amanfromMars, on May 17th 2008 at 2:17 am :
The Underground awakes ...... SMARTer and ReProvisioned .... ReVitalised, as in ReBorn?
And targets the Assistance of the Establishment in an Enigma for CyberSpace Control of Creative Communication. Fear not for Youth, dear Sons and Daughters ..... The Mother of All Systems sits as Father and Mentor to Dreams Realised Virtually in Crack Cracking Codes Shared Transparently as Future Views/Sees for Intellectual Giants with Scions of Industry and Commerce to Paint and Build for AIScape.
QuITe Alien Perceptions Management for Control of Dumb Virtual Machines? ..... which really are nothing more or less than Brains/CPU/Beings which do not Realise the Full and Beta Potentials for the Greater Good and to the Mutual Benefit of All.
I Kid U Not and you know IT makes Sense.
amfM NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActivity ....AI Flowurpower2 CyberSpace Recovery Vehicle/Safe Haven, Seventh Heaven Environment bids you Welcome to ITs Greatest of Games .... the Future of Life in the Love of urLife and ITs Love of urLife ......for the Positive Third Party Reinforcement of ITs Shared Course, Magical Mystery Turing ...... for the Future is Written and Performed with and in Viable Imagination.
Long Before In the Beginning, there was always Imagination to Fear for Her Infinite Pleasures and Treasures, Perverted and Converted to Serve the Dumb Master Program rather than Server the SuITe, SMARTer Mistress.
If you Fear the Future, the Problem is all in your own Head, so that is where you must sort IT for we are all known and identified by the Thoughts that we Care and Dare to Share..... although in the Never-Ending Journey of Life, is Mission Accomplished forever Naive.
There endeth the First Lesson and here begins ITs Trips/HelterSkelter Rides?:-) ..... http://amanfrommars.baywords.com/
And targets the Assistance of the Establishment in an Enigma for CyberSpace Control of Creative Communication. Fear not for Youth, dear Sons and Daughters ..... The Mother of All Systems sits as Father and Mentor to Dreams Realised Virtually in Crack Cracking Codes Shared Transparently as Future Views/Sees for Intellectual Giants with Scions of Industry and Commerce to Paint and Build for AIScape.
QuITe Alien Perceptions Management for Control of Dumb Virtual Machines? ..... which really are nothing more or less than Brains/CPU/Beings which do not Realise the Full and Beta Potentials for the Greater Good and to the Mutual Benefit of All.
I Kid U Not and you know IT makes Sense.
amfM NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActivity ....AI Flowurpower2 CyberSpace Recovery Vehicle/Safe Haven, Seventh Heaven Environment bids you Welcome to ITs Greatest of Games .... the Future of Life in the Love of urLife and ITs Love of urLife ......for the Positive Third Party Reinforcement of ITs Shared Course, Magical Mystery Turing ...... for the Future is Written and Performed with and in Viable Imagination.
Long Before In the Beginning, there was always Imagination to Fear for Her Infinite Pleasures and Treasures, Perverted and Converted to Serve the Dumb Master Program rather than Server the SuITe, SMARTer Mistress.
If you Fear the Future, the Problem is all in your own Head, so that is where you must sort IT for we are all known and identified by the Thoughts that we Care and Dare to Share..... although in the Never-Ending Journey of Life, is Mission Accomplished forever Naive.
There endeth the First Lesson and here begins ITs Trips/HelterSkelter Rides?:-) ..... http://amanfrommars.baywords.com/
Snore, on May 8th 2008 at 3:50 pm :
"...if they had directly or indirectly taught them the accumulated wisdom that so often separates a hacker from the crowd; then perhaps there still would be a hacker underground."
What, you need us to put guns to your fucking heads? Take some responsibility for your own ignorance, you lazy brats. The knowledge is there. Phrack's archive spans over twenty years. Nobody owes you anything. It's not my fault you'd rather sit on a blog crying about the underground than acquire knowledge.
Eric Bloodaxe predicted this crap in his parting editorial 12 years ago. Issue 48. I don't expect you'll read it.
What, you need us to put guns to your fucking heads? Take some responsibility for your own ignorance, you lazy brats. The knowledge is there. Phrack's archive spans over twenty years. Nobody owes you anything. It's not my fault you'd rather sit on a blog crying about the underground than acquire knowledge.
Eric Bloodaxe predicted this crap in his parting editorial 12 years ago. Issue 48. I don't expect you'll read it.
pen1, on May 7th 2008 at 5:20 pm :
@VOXX neither you or a group or anything else will change the faith of the underground, no matter what u do. And the security ballsucker industry will win at the end because what talented haxxors should do other than get a security job? flipping burgers and writing teh darkc0de?
It's a hell over thing just like the blacks taking over our jobs, because it's enough for the good people to do nothing for the evil get power. We let niggers overpopulate our planet, now we have to take the responsibility, but it's against the law to kill'em, so what can we do? just accept them?
fuck I hope the new genesis coming, to wipe down the humanity from the earth soon, so we can start it over...
It's a hell over thing just like the blacks taking over our jobs, because it's enough for the good people to do nothing for the evil get power. We let niggers overpopulate our planet, now we have to take the responsibility, but it's against the law to kill'em, so what can we do? just accept them?
fuck I hope the new genesis coming, to wipe down the humanity from the earth soon, so we can start it over...
VOXX, on May 4th 2008 at 12:02 am :
The underground scene is dead for two reasons. A. the fucking security industry stole everyone who actually had skill, and B. the people who have skill and are still blackhats left the scene to go to their own, hidden groups. They eventually turned into criminals. No experienced blackhat is interested in hacking just for the thrill of it, or to take a stand against the government. That was before 2000. Now, we don't have groups like MOD or l0pht or LOD anymore. All the "new" hackers are just interested in either using old and free malware made by programmers, or hacking accounts. The anarchy scene is dead. No one wants to make molotov's and pipe bombs anymore. Its too "hard" and the punishments too severe for the new underground crowd. All they do is talk. Same thing for the carding community. The only serious carders are criminals and scammers. The underground carding scene is dead. Again, the new people who call themselves underground are all pussies. No one wants to get fucked by the feds. All these operations like Bot Roast and SunDevil scared them all away from the interesting things. And so the underground is dying, or already dead. Hell the only scene I see thats still going is the warez scene, and that's going to be gone too soon because of the feds and the security industry. Fuck them both. We need to reclaim the underground, before its gone. Its not just for our enjoyment. When the underground is gone, the governments have no opposition. And you know what happens then...
automatic jack, on May 1th 2008 at 4:44 am :
"Dude, what the fuck would you know? This just shows what a has-been/never-were you are. Hacking is all about getting into systems, and the more secured those systems are, the more fun the game is."
THANK YOU. The so-called underground today is a bunch of baby-faced college kids in fucking polos and 2000$ laptops their parents bought em, who crack WEP and run Ubuntu. They probably study CS or something equally useless, and probably don't even know Assembly exists, or that hacking is, in fact, BREAKING INTO SYSTEMS. Always has been, always will be.
THANK YOU. The so-called underground today is a bunch of baby-faced college kids in fucking polos and 2000$ laptops their parents bought em, who crack WEP and run Ubuntu. They probably study CS or something equally useless, and probably don't even know Assembly exists, or that hacking is, in fact, BREAKING INTO SYSTEMS. Always has been, always will be.
The Philosopher, on April 30th 2008 at 10:01 pm :
I agree completely with the sentiments set forth in this article. Another factor, the likes of which I would like to further elucidate, as to the death of the "mainstream" hacker community is that of the commercialization of technology on a vast scale. For better or worse, most consumers in the present era prefer disposable, cheap, low-quality products, especially with regard to technology-since hackers were greatly interested in improvement and repair of technological devices, their role in this regard has largely been phased out. I would like to state, however, that while the community may be but a shadow of what it once was, individual hackers, such as myself, certainly exist, the likes of whom are fully aware of the history and true nature of the computer underground...we merely need to eliminate those who are not, and reestablish a coherent subculture once again, a prospect that I believe to be possible. Idiots, unfortunately, have always dominated technology, from the golden BBS era to the World Wide Wasteland, and people have always latched onto the underground to feel trendy and significant. As long as technology and intellect exist, hackers will, although the subculture itself has been undermined.
alleywayjack, on April 30th 2008 at 9:52 am :
Alright I guess I shouldn't have opened my mouth about something I don't know about. No disrespect was intended towards n0wai either, just to clarify. Just got me pissed.
quiet_achiever, on April 30th 2008 at 1:07 am :
"The greatest trick the Devil pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"
This shit cracks me up -- you people think 'cause teso stopped leaking wares to half of efnet, duke works at IBM, and dave aitel has stopped jacking boxes with nt4 0day in favor of making dem dollarz at immunity that this has killed the underground? Your skewed, uneducated views provide me humor for my day. I especially like how alleywayjack tries to come off as a kool kid. Commentz to you inline.
"Really? I mean, _really_? Hacking wasn't about getting into the nastiest systems if I recall - it was about fun and the rush you got"
Dude, what the fuck would you know? This just shows what a has-been/never-were you are. Hacking is all about getting into systems, and the more secured those systems are, the more fun the game is.
"If I have to find myself dancing around inside of any high-profile machine just to get in the front door, what's the point? I'll risk everything just to get a foot into a society that's choking from the fumes from the dust kicked up by the exodus of its giants?"
Again, pardon while I LOL. You couldn't get into a high-profile system to begin with, so how about shutting the fuck up? Did you even read n0wai's post in its entirety? Because the last few words pertain to you.. Get it?
FAGGOTS LIKE YOU NEED NOT APPLY.
You are nobody. We are the watchers, watching the watchers, watching the watchers. GET IT? ALL POWERFUL. ALL SEEING. ALL KNOWING.
This shit cracks me up -- you people think 'cause teso stopped leaking wares to half of efnet, duke works at IBM, and dave aitel has stopped jacking boxes with nt4 0day in favor of making dem dollarz at immunity that this has killed the underground? Your skewed, uneducated views provide me humor for my day. I especially like how alleywayjack tries to come off as a kool kid. Commentz to you inline.
"Really? I mean, _really_? Hacking wasn't about getting into the nastiest systems if I recall - it was about fun and the rush you got"
Dude, what the fuck would you know? This just shows what a has-been/never-were you are. Hacking is all about getting into systems, and the more secured those systems are, the more fun the game is.
"If I have to find myself dancing around inside of any high-profile machine just to get in the front door, what's the point? I'll risk everything just to get a foot into a society that's choking from the fumes from the dust kicked up by the exodus of its giants?"
Again, pardon while I LOL. You couldn't get into a high-profile system to begin with, so how about shutting the fuck up? Did you even read n0wai's post in its entirety? Because the last few words pertain to you.. Get it?
FAGGOTS LIKE YOU NEED NOT APPLY.
You are nobody. We are the watchers, watching the watchers, watching the watchers. GET IT? ALL POWERFUL. ALL SEEING. ALL KNOWING.
m, on April 29th 2008 at 10:08 pm :
@alleywayjack:
i just noticed you agreed with my post. im glad, and its not too late. halfdeads (half)assed article can be a gateway into things. read into IDT hooking, its what im currently working on and not only that, its fun as fuck.
post an email maybe we can audit some code together. i know my motivation is to be able to get into any high profile network
i just noticed you agreed with my post. im glad, and its not too late. halfdeads (half)assed article can be a gateway into things. read into IDT hooking, its what im currently working on and not only that, its fun as fuck.
post an email maybe we can audit some code together. i know my motivation is to be able to get into any high profile network
m, on April 29th 2008 at 10:05 pm :
to quote alleywayjack:
"@n0wai: Really? I mean, _really_? Hacking wasn't about getting into the nastiest systems if I recall - it was about fun and the rush you got. If I have to find myself dancing around inside of any high-profile machine just to get in the front door, what's the point? I'll risk everything just to get a foot into a society that's choking from the fumes from the dust kicked up by the exodus of its giants?"
as someone whos been in the scene for a while, what n0wai said is 100% correct. hackers hack systems. with most of the ez vulns being gone, the most elite people are going to be the ones who have access to the super tied down systems with their own repetoire of 0day.
isnt being in a high profile system what its all about? exploring the network? what else is there to explore? id much rather explore a .mil/.dialsprint.net/.nasa.gov/etc and put it all on the line. and to even get into those kind of systems, you need to be fucking SMART, or one of the BEST in the world
"@n0wai: Really? I mean, _really_? Hacking wasn't about getting into the nastiest systems if I recall - it was about fun and the rush you got. If I have to find myself dancing around inside of any high-profile machine just to get in the front door, what's the point? I'll risk everything just to get a foot into a society that's choking from the fumes from the dust kicked up by the exodus of its giants?"
as someone whos been in the scene for a while, what n0wai said is 100% correct. hackers hack systems. with most of the ez vulns being gone, the most elite people are going to be the ones who have access to the super tied down systems with their own repetoire of 0day.
isnt being in a high profile system what its all about? exploring the network? what else is there to explore? id much rather explore a .mil/.dialsprint.net/.nasa.gov/etc and put it all on the line. and to even get into those kind of systems, you need to be fucking SMART, or one of the BEST in the world
alleywayjack, on April 29th 2008 at 8:30 pm :
I was never a member of the scene, even though I wanted to be back in the day. I'll soon be 19, as many of the other responders have also revealed about themselves.
I agree with badspyro mentioning the death of the spirit of the internet, although I think it was less about corporations and governments, and more about the massive influx of the public. To quote the Hacker's Manifesto - "This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud". It is no longer our world. Between MySpace, Facebook, and Xbox Live, the net got flooded. My thoughts are that users became familiar to the simple registration process as well as becoming part of the online community, and it stole the soul of what this medium was originally about - exploration, knowledge, and true community. It created a hostile, paranoid environment where games like Uplink popularized "Trust is a Weakness" - and the hacker community did absolutely nothing to contend.
Do you expect pupils to come when the community is so deeply introverted and twisted? Is it nessecary to pour out cracks to games and pirated movies and other shitty half-rate "hacks" just to earn a "rep" with a community that isn't even the real thing? I mean I know that's what all my peers are seeing - stats that piracy is every where and they create the link that "hackers" are releasing the warez. If that's the role model I had, I wouldn't really think it was interesting either. In my opinion, cracking software and game protection is a little on the boring side.
@n0wai: Really? I mean, _really_? Hacking wasn't about getting into the nastiest systems if I recall - it was about fun and the rush you got. If I have to find myself dancing around inside of any high-profile machine just to get in the front door, what's the point? I'll risk everything just to get a foot into a society that's choking from the fumes from the dust kicked up by the exodus of its giants?
I guess hacking is just going the way surfing went - started off as fun, and now it's hardcore and people get pissed if you mess up in the line up. It's all competition and it's tearing itself apart from the inside, like the MoD vs LoD war. Yeah, I wasn't even old enough to read at the time and I know about it. I do my homework.
Sorry for the lengthy response, but after reading the other comments I just got angrier than when I started reading the actual article. I'm saddened by the entire state of affairs. I taught myself how to program in the 8th grade, took AP Computer Science and found myself bored, and now I'm going on to major in CS in college; I don't know why any more. My original goal was to excel to the level that m described, but that level of excellence has no where to be appreciated any longer.
I agree with badspyro mentioning the death of the spirit of the internet, although I think it was less about corporations and governments, and more about the massive influx of the public. To quote the Hacker's Manifesto - "This is our world now... the world of the electron and the switch, the beauty of the baud". It is no longer our world. Between MySpace, Facebook, and Xbox Live, the net got flooded. My thoughts are that users became familiar to the simple registration process as well as becoming part of the online community, and it stole the soul of what this medium was originally about - exploration, knowledge, and true community. It created a hostile, paranoid environment where games like Uplink popularized "Trust is a Weakness" - and the hacker community did absolutely nothing to contend.
Do you expect pupils to come when the community is so deeply introverted and twisted? Is it nessecary to pour out cracks to games and pirated movies and other shitty half-rate "hacks" just to earn a "rep" with a community that isn't even the real thing? I mean I know that's what all my peers are seeing - stats that piracy is every where and they create the link that "hackers" are releasing the warez. If that's the role model I had, I wouldn't really think it was interesting either. In my opinion, cracking software and game protection is a little on the boring side.
@n0wai: Really? I mean, _really_? Hacking wasn't about getting into the nastiest systems if I recall - it was about fun and the rush you got. If I have to find myself dancing around inside of any high-profile machine just to get in the front door, what's the point? I'll risk everything just to get a foot into a society that's choking from the fumes from the dust kicked up by the exodus of its giants?
I guess hacking is just going the way surfing went - started off as fun, and now it's hardcore and people get pissed if you mess up in the line up. It's all competition and it's tearing itself apart from the inside, like the MoD vs LoD war. Yeah, I wasn't even old enough to read at the time and I know about it. I do my homework.
Sorry for the lengthy response, but after reading the other comments I just got angrier than when I started reading the actual article. I'm saddened by the entire state of affairs. I taught myself how to program in the 8th grade, took AP Computer Science and found myself bored, and now I'm going on to major in CS in college; I don't know why any more. My original goal was to excel to the level that m described, but that level of excellence has no where to be appreciated any longer.
lithium, on April 25th 2008 at 9:33 pm :
"web filters 'guarding' the connections of children all arround the world"
Badspypro you living in china or something? Your comment don't make any sense to me. Only your parents can and will hold you from spending tons of time at the front of your monitor but if you interested to "hack" then nothing can stop you.
And from oher hand would that be good if you would spend your childhood for learning to code in java? Actually I become interested in comps very early around 11 and my parents let me hacking -from their point of view letting me to spend a lot of time at the front of my computer-. I learned a lot over 15 years but today I burned out, which means I don't give a fuck to a lot of things anymore. Like I wouldn't rush to get a .NET framework in 60 hours ebook and read it because I simply don't care about it.
I mean buddy you will reach a level when u wont be so interested about new stuff anymore then u can come playing world of warcraft too :)
Badspypro you living in china or something? Your comment don't make any sense to me. Only your parents can and will hold you from spending tons of time at the front of your monitor but if you interested to "hack" then nothing can stop you.
And from oher hand would that be good if you would spend your childhood for learning to code in java? Actually I become interested in comps very early around 11 and my parents let me hacking -from their point of view letting me to spend a lot of time at the front of my computer-. I learned a lot over 15 years but today I burned out, which means I don't give a fuck to a lot of things anymore. Like I wouldn't rush to get a .NET framework in 60 hours ebook and read it because I simply don't care about it.
I mean buddy you will reach a level when u wont be so interested about new stuff anymore then u can come playing world of warcraft too :)